Episode 37 Transcript

Craig Bailey: Welcome to episode 37 of HubShots, the podcast for marketing managers who use HubSpot. My name is Craig Bailey from XEN Systems, and I’m joined by my co-host, Ian Jacob, from Search and Be Found. Ian, How are you?

Ian Jacob: Good, Craig. How are you doing?

Craig Bailey: Really well. Now, let’s dive into it. We’ve got a big episode coming up, lots of exciting things to cover, but we’re making a bit of a change with our inbound thought of the week.

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: It’s an inbound wish of the week, isn’t it?

Ian Jacob: It is an inbound wish of the week. So I was thinking, I’d really love to see Instagram integration into HubSpot as another social channel that you can monitor and post from.

Craig Bailey: Yeah, that would be excellent, isn’t it? Instagram is becoming very, very popular, isn’t it?

Ian Jacob: Yeah, it is. And we’ve been testing it out on a few of our different clients and just even ourselves, and there is some very interesting results. Again, test and measure.

Craig Bailey: Test and measure, we love to say. All right, there were actually some new speakers announced for inbound, which is always good to see. We’re going to cover that next episode though.

Ian Jacob: We shall.

Craig Bailey: Lots of exciting news there. But we’re going to jump straight into our HubSpot tip of the week, and this is a very simple tip. I’ve actually had this with customers ask, “How can we actually block certain email addressees being used?”

Ian Jacob: Yeah, you’re talking about Hotmail and stuff?

Craig Bailey: Yeah, exactly. And I think if you’ve used this little option on forms, you’re like, “Yeah, I’m aware of this,” but some people might not be aware of this.

Ian Jacob: Okay.

Craig Bailey: When you create a form in HubSpot and you put the email field field as one of the fields in the form, there’s actually a little tick box there where you can say block any free email accounts.

Ian Jacob: That’s right, and there’s…if you click on the…there’s a link beside it that says to see the list. You can actually see what free email providers are blocked.

Craig Bailey: Yeah.

Ian Jacob: And you’ve got another little trick up your sleeve, Craig?

Craig Bailey: Well, I guess it’s a way of dealing with spam. Because the reason this came up, how to block those free email…

Ian Jacob: Providers?

Craig Bailey: …providers is like, “How do I get rid of all this spam that keeps turning up on my site?” And so, one of the ways is yeah, you block those free email ones, but you might not necessarily want to do that, and also has the disadvantage that you’ve actually got to go through and do that for every form that you use, so there’s a bit of overhead. But another way that we’ve been doing is we just create a smart list, and in it we say, “Pick up any email addresses that have certain email domains,” and this is because we keep getting spammed by the same people from different…from these normally outsourcing companies and that. They’ve always got a new first name or something like that. It’s always got a number in it.

Ian Jacob: Yes, it does.

Craig Bailey: Like the Frank722 at whatever. So what we do now is we just catch any contact that has that email address in the domain, we’ve got this little screenshot of how we get that in the smart list, and then one of my team just deletes them. So they go into contacts to be deleted smart list. So you can very easily look after them. Now you could also put that into a workflow.

Ian Jacob: Correct.

Craig Bailey: Just to make sure that they don’t get any downloads or things like that.

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: Any followups from you, drop them out of things. And, you know, I was thinking, another thing we often get from customers is, “How can I stop my competitors?”

Ian Jacob: Yes, I was about to ask you that.

Craig Bailey: How can I stop them getting e-books? Because we don’t want them signing up for our own assets. That’s another way, you put…you have this list of email addresses or email domains that go into a smart list that never get those thank you emails. You automatically block them from any of the workflows.

Ian Jacob: Yes, so that’s provided you don’t have your download on the thank you page.

Craig Bailey: Well, that’s right.

Ian Jacob: And your getting them emailed to you, right?

Craig Bailey: Exactly right.

Ian Jacob: That’s a great tip, Craig. Now onto challenge of the week.

Craig Bailey: All right. Why don’t you introduce our challenge? Because this is something that we both hear quite a lot from our customers.

Ian Jacob: Yes, so this is… Let’s start off with people often will come up like with Snapchat, for example. Getting great traction online, and so people are asking us, “Look, should we use that?” And I think people often don’t realize what channels they should operate on or what they should test. Now, with certain things, there are certain limitations or maybe your market is not there. So Snapchat has a very different market and maybe to just test it out or you need to just shelve it for now and test other channels where you know people are at. So Facebook being one of them is a great one because you know people are using Facebook in business, like it is happening. We’ve got customers where they have conversations with prospective customers about finance on Facebook.

Craig Bailey: Right.

Ian Jacob: Who would have thought?

Craig Bailey: Right.

Ian Jacob: So again, it’s about understanding what these channels are. So now we’re gonna talk a bit about these different channels. Now, one thing I think we should not lose sight of is that you need to be doing email marketing.

Craig Bailey: Yes, it’s almost like…

Ian : The basics, right?

Craig Bailey: All the channels, whatever channels you’re choosing and deciding, just make sure email is definitely ticked.

Ian Jacob: Yeah, look, we know, and there are lots of studies out there, the return for email marketing is about 4300%, right? It blows it out of the water because you’re getting right into the mailboxes of people. So if you’re not doing that right now, you’re focusing on doing social, maybe turn back the clock a little.

Craig Bailey: You know what? I actually do want to highlight this because people listening to this might go, “Well, duh, of course we do email marketing,” and yet how many people do you know, your customers, they’ve got HubSpot or they’ve even got an email marketing system but they don’t use it regularly?

Ian Jacob: Exactly.

Craig Bailey: Typical example, we don’t do monthly newsletters, we do quarterly newsletters. Why? Who decided that?

Ian Jacob: Yes, because they’re printing it

Craig Bailey: Right. But yeah, sometimes people make these decisions, “We’re just going to have a quarterly newsletter,” and that’s like, “Why? Why didn’t you test that?” And then in the same conversation they’re saying, “Oh, but we want to test all these other channels.” It’s like get your email marketing really working for you first and then start looking at these other ones. And yeah, is Snapchat one of them? Well, maybe.

Ian Jacob: Yeah, look, and I also think every email doesn’t have to be about trying to sell people stuff. It’s like it could be if you know your persona they might be interested in Vivid, for example, that’s going on now, all right? So they will be all out and about. You could actually send them something about your Vivid experience or how they can experience Vivid in a different way.

Craig Bailey: Right, so we probably should explain what Vivid is for our overseas listeners.

Ian Jacob: Yeah, so do you wanna do that? It’s actually happening right where you live Craig.

Craig Bailey: So yes, this is a…it’s a light installation kind of festival I’d say. It happens in Sydney. I don’t know if it happens…I’m sure it happens in other cities around the world but it’s definitely going on in Sydney at the moment, Especially in the Sydney CBD, they have those amazing light shows. And where we are, we live in Chatswood, which is a suburb in Sydney, we’ve got kind of a mini Vivid going on. And yeah, it’s packed with people there checking out all those lights. It’s amazing.

Ian Jacob: It is amazing. And people would…if you Google it online you’d probably the see most famous picture is the Opera House with pictures on them from the light shows. It’s fantastic.

Craig Bailey: So sorry, I distracted you there. Getting back, so yeah, you’re sharing your experiences of Vivid, that could be relevant newsletter content with your audience.

Ian Jacob: Exactly. I’ve got another little tip, Craig, is that people, we’ve noticed, don’t like sending emails from a particular person in the company, and they send it from marketing@mycompany, and it kind of is like a non-existent person. And I would actually encourage people, so what we’ve been doing with our customers is saying, “Look, if this particular partner talks to these contacts and this partner talks to these contacts, personalize it. It looks like it’s coming from that partner within the business.”

And you know what? If people don’t know, you stick your photo in the emails so they can actually relate to you as a person. And you know what? That works really good. And I actually told someone the other day who I met at a party, I said, “Look, it doesn’t have to have a fancy template. Make it look like it’s coming from you.” You’ll probably get double the open rate and you’ll get a better return in the long term because it looks like you’ve actually taken the care to email them and share something important with them.

Craig Bailey: That’s an excellent tip. And if you want any kind of proof that it works just look at what HubSpot does.

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: So every email I send comes from a person. It doesn’t come from HubSpot Marketing Department, no face, nameless department. Yeah, it’s always personal. Excellent tip. All right, let’s just go back a step. So we’ve started this, the challenge of the week was, “What channels should I use?” And this has come up because customers of ours have said, “Should I try Snapchat?” and we’re kind of saying, “Well, the challenge is which ones should we use?” And so then a couple of the ways, or a couple of the guidelines we give in terms of how to select the channels to use, first, always choose email marketing, assuming you’ve got that in order.

Some of the ways that we can look at are things like industry reports, and what we’ve included in the show notes for this episode is a few screen grabs from the content marketing institutes, Contact Marketing Report. What that did is it surveyed people, and these particular results just were for North America, just on the main channels they use. So that’s always a guide because it includes effectiveness. Marketing managers talk about which ones were most effective for them, so that’s always a guide, kind of use those.

Ian Jacob: Yeah, and you know what’s interesting? It says that the average number of platforms used, social, is six. So, I’ll tell you the top six, LinkedIn being the first, then Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, Google, and Slideshare. Now, to be honest, I don’t have anybody using Slideshare, but looking at this, I think I would actually…

Craig Bailey: I think it’s…yeah.

Ian Jacob: It’s underutilized.

Craig Bailey: Yeah, it’s a big opportunity, and we’ll actually look at Slideshare in a second…

Ian Jacob: We shall.

Craig Bailey: …when we look at Merrymakers state of the internet report. But yeah, it’s one of those channels that people just don’t use. And I think often it’s because we’ve got so many to choose from and there’s so many things, of course, it gets left. But…

Ian Jacob: No, shall I talk about the effectiveness?

Craig Bailey: Yeah, I was going to say which ones aren’t on that list, because yeah…

Ian Jacob: Yeah, so look, on that list wasn’t Snapchat.

Craig Bailey: Snapchat wasn’t there?

Ian Jacob: We’re talking about B2B social media platforms, but in terms of effectiveness, I thought this is rather interesting. We’ve got LinkedIn at the top, then Twitter, then YouTube, then SlideShare, and then Facebook. Now, I find that’s very interesting. So that’s the top five that I’ve shared with you. There’s a few more in there, like Instagram, Pinterest, and Google. But I think that’s a really key driver to understand. Look, just because we are using them, doesn’t mean it’s effective. So always be looking to see what your return is and how it’s working for you. And don’t be afraid to say, “Look, I’m not going to focus on that platform. Let’s just park that, and let’s go and focus on these top three.”

Craig Bailey: Yeah, I totally agree. And if you want to try Snapchat, what’s really interesting about Snapchat and why it is so topical at the moment, and we’ll see this in Mary Meeker’s report, is because just in the space of a year, or actually less, six months, it’s grown phenomenally. So, whereas maybe even just six months ago it was kind of just one of those things that a few people were experimenting with, now it’s almost mainstream. Everyone is kind of on Snapchat. So the logical question that comes from marketing managers is, “Well, should we be using it?”

One of things you highlighted before is you’ve got to test and measure, and one of the difficulties with Snapchat, it’s really hard to actually measure ROI because there is no kind of way that you can track back, say, leads to a Snapchat viewing and things like that. So it s very much something that has to be in the test budget. It’s just something you are testing on the side, it’s not part of your main channels. But the other thing that follows on from those content marketing results that you mentioned is well, that was six months ago when that study was done, I wonder how much has changed. So you always need to be staying up-to-date and that’s why the Merrymaker say the internet report is so interesting.

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: So this has just been released in this week, and there are a few, well, tons of findings. We’re going to put out a few of them, aren’t we?

Ian Jacob: I think one thing that stood out, Craig, that in this report, it talked about the different generations. Generation Z, really interesting statistics that compared to us, we’re using two screens or two devices, they’ve got about five happening at the same time, and that they’re more image-based as opposed to us who are probably more text-based. So understanding that, that’s why things like Snapchat is actually doing really well and, you know, they’re driving the market for that, and it has a totally different mode of operation as well.

So in the report from Mary Meeker, it says that image growth remains strong. So that will continue to drive a lot of platforms that we will see going forward I think. And if you look at what you see on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, is all gearing that way, right? It’s all image, video. Very fascinating. Basically in a nutshell the amount of photo shared has pretty much close to doubled in a year.

Craig Bailey: It’s growing exponentially.

Ian Jacob: Exponentially, yeah, totally.

Craig Bailey: And you know what I think is interesting about Snapchat, see Snapchat usage has been growing phenomenally, but they added chat to Snapchat funnily enough. So whereas before you were kind of just showing what you were doing, now you are actually talking with people. And as you said, with younger demographics, it’s with photos or with video, whereas before we might be with text, that kind of thing. So the whole point around its growth alongside other apps like Facebook Messenger is around the actual messaging aspect. And why this is interesting to highlight, it’s slightly different to Instagram, for example, where you’re sharing photos but it’s not so much a one-to-one chat, it’s more of a broadcast.

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: Like Twitter is a broadcast, and I guess part of the normal Facebook app is more broadcast, where it’s the messaging, it’s the chatting, it’s the one-on-one piece that is really driving this growth.

Ian Jacob: Personal [SP] growth?

Craig Bailey: Yeah, and that’s why I think when you’re considering Snapchat, you need to be looking at that. It’s actually about conversing not just broadcast, and perhaps marketing managers aren’t factoring that into the kind of decision criteria.

Ian Jacob: That’s a really good point to make, Craig. A very good point in terms of how it’s being used and what you get in return for it. So just understand the purpose of that channel. So we’re going to talk a bit about Facebook and how we can integrate it with your website because, again, that is an actual chat platform where you can start a conversation with someone. Now, obviously, it might not finish on that platform but it’s a great place to start. So, do you want to talk a bit more about that

Craig Bailey: Yeah, and I think the point that we’re building on is if someone says, “My challenge is I’m not sure which channels to use. Should I use Snapchat?” Part of the answer is, as we’ve said, yep, look at industry studies, what other people are doing, things like that, but realize it’s moving one-to-one. So if you want to try Snapchat, don’t just assume it’s one of these broadcast mediums. Be prepared to have the integration with people actually conversing.

So then that takes on to the topic overall of messaging apps. So then looking at Facebook Messenger as kind of a key example, integrating that into your site, and that’s we’ve actually been talking with customers about the next steps. People are getting slightly fatigued about filling out forms to download yet another e-book. They don’t want to fill out a Contact Us form because that’s a bit abrupt.

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: They might not want to call someone, but they want to chat.

Ian Jacob: Correct.

Craig Bailey: So that’s actually the channel you need to be providing on your website. Now the chat might be various different products, we’re going to talk about Facebook Messenger.

Ian Jacob: Yeah, so some people might already be running some sort of chat, like there is Zopim and there is LiveChat, which has worked really well.

Craig Bailey: Yeah, I guess we should mention all of those. Yeah.

Ian Jacob: And I think one of the interesting things, Craig, and I think we’ve highlighted this before on one of our episodes is that by using something like Facebook where you have a large number of connected users that are on the platform way more than any other platform, they are already authenticated, right? So when they’re having this conversation there is no barrier to starting that conversation with you. They’re not having to put in email, give you their name, tell you where they’re from, tell you what they’re phone number is. They can literally go, “Oh, yeah, cool. I’m logged in. I wanna have a chat with Craig now,” and you can start the conversation. And I think that’s a massive, like the barrier has just lowered itself.

Craig Bailey: Exactly right, totally agree. So let’s just talk a little bit about Facebook Messenger because we touched on this last episode. Tom Critchlow has a really good blog post about how to integrate Facebook Messenger with your website.

Ian Jacob: And you did it, Craig?

Craig Bailey: Yeah, and so I put it on my personal site and I was surprised at how easy it is. We’ll include a link to Tom’s post. It’s just a bit of code and a bit of styling. So I’ve put that on my site. Now, what marketing managers can get from this is it’s actually really simple. So if you wanted to get Facebook Messenger on to your website, this is not a huge integration piece. This is just a simple script adding to your site.

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: So then the next question is, “Well, who’s actually going to answer those messages?”

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: And here the answer is actually really nice because you can actually link that Messenger not to your profile but to your page, your company page. And then if you’ve got multiple people who are looking after your page or using the Facebook pages app on their phone, they can be answering all of those messages straight away. So it’s something you can share amongst your team. It’s not as though one person has to be accountable for it all. And if you want to try that, you can go to my site,, and just message me there and see how I respond. You can see the whole experience. It’s very good, and I’m actually going to add that to our agency site as well, and I think you’re gonna do the same.

Ian Jacob: Yes, and I’m gonna do the same. I think the key to this, Craig, and I think the question often gets asked is that, “You know what? I’m going to have to get someone to do this for me, to be on the chat and to staff it.” You know what? Find somebody to do it. With all of these things, if you put a little bit of effort in, you will get a return. So, for example, I told an engineering customer of mine that sell spray nozzles, I told him to put live chat on before Messenger was available. And I said, “Look, if you want to just try it out for a month, just try it out for a month. You know, you’ve got your trial, and if you don’t like it, you can turn it off.” Within the day that it was installed, they had someone contact them on live chat, and they sold a lot of product, and it well out more than pay for the integration of the live chat, right?

Craig Bailey: That’s excellent.

Ian Jacob: And it was because there was somebody there who was doing workouts, like someone was able to message, get the right answer, and then say, “Oh yeah, I’ll buy like 10 of those.” How good is that? They didn’t have to try very hard to make a sale, right?

Craig Bailey: That’s an excellent result.

Ian Jacob: Whereas if they didn’t have it, what would somebody do, they’d look at the product, they’d go, “I don’t know if that fits. Now I’ve got to fill out all of my contact details to figure out, that I need to inquire about this product because they don’t have an inquiry form on the page.” They have to go to the contact page. You’ve just had…I’ve got them jump through 10 other hoops to get to you, right? So I think this is a definite advantage, and I think don’t be afraid to test it out.

You know what? If you are the marketing manager and you’ve got to answer those questions for a week, try it out, test it out. You know what you will discover? You will discover all of these things that you probably should have on your website, on your product page, on your About Us page, on your Frequently Asked Questions that should be there to answer what the fears are of the people that you’re selling your products to.

Craig Bailey: Totally agree. There’s three things I wanna say to that. I know I’m gonna forget the third by the time I get there. The first one is, in a conversation with a customer this week, they said, “Look, Facebook Messenger won’t work for us because we’re a B2B technology company.”

Ian Jacob: Okay.

Craig Bailey: And I was looking at one of the stats that came from the Mary Meeker report where she looks at how hired hotel chain…

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: Basically they increased in directions with customers 20 times once they added Facebook Messenger.

Ian Jacob: Wow.

Craig Bailey: So this is not just a slight increase, this is a massive…

Ian Jacob: Exponential.

Craig Bailey: Massive increase, right? My customer was like, “Well, that’s fine. That’s a hotel chain. We’re not selling hotel rooms, you know. IT managers don’t want to fill out a messenger form on a B2B technology.” Well, no. Because I can guarantee you IT managers are filling out a Facebook site on a hotel site, right? So why wouldn’t they want to do exactly the same with every other business that they deal with? They get used to that context of being able to message. It doesn’t matter what the product is, they just want to talk on their terms. So it’s all about talking with people in ways that they want to talk. So that was a really useful Mary Meeker insight that came out. The other two things I want to tell you, totally forgotten them by now.

Ian Jacob: That’s okay. That was still a very good one. Now, one thing I wanted to highlight, and this is leading on from it, is that people often will say, “You know, what about online advertising?” In Mary’s slide or her report, it talked about online advertising advocacy, right? And it still has a long way. But one thing she highlighted is Google has proven it’s an effective method and advertising works, right? In 2015 Google had $75 billion worth of revenue and a 14% year on year growth, right?

If that’s not any numbers to say that it works, I don’t know what is. But what was really interesting, Craig, that I’ve found is that online video ads are ineffective, and I’ll tell you why, because people couldn’t mute the video ads. They we’re annoyed and put off with brand forcing pre-roll viewing and people considered using ad-blocking. So she kind of gave some things that was really interesting, which we’ve actually discovered in our journey is how you can make video ads work. And I’m going to tell you the first one, it’s to be authentic.

Craig Bailey: Yeah, I think so. She listed eight items there and some of the others were, make them entertaining, evocative, sell on emotional ailments…

Ian Jacob: Personal?

Craig Bailey: Personal, relatable, useful, work with the sound off. That’s the key one, isn’t it? Last week we were talking about Facebook and how a study found that 85% of people viewed video on Facebook with the sound off. So if you’re creating video for Facebook and it requires sound, then you’re off to a bad start. But yeah, that whole non-interruptive ad format, that was her final point is really where you need to be. So people…and you know how I don’t know, we still have these shows in Australia, but remember you’d have the craziest ads? There used to be actually a show on TV…

Ian Jacob: Yes, there was. Yes.

Craig Bailey: …which talked about the funniest ads to watch, like people were watching a show about ads. So it just goes to show that if the ads are good enough and entertaining, people actually like to watch them, right? So it’s not as if all ads are evil, it’s the format of the ads and how you consume them.

Ian Jacob: So talking about funny ads, I think one ad that stands out to me, and you’ve probably seen it around Sydney, is the Bonds ads for very comfy undies.

Craig Bailey: Right, okay.

Ian Jacob: Well, just Youtube it. It’s very fascinating, and do a search and have a look. There’s a whole series. I think there’s a series of six or seven of them. It talks about Bonds having very comfy undies. Anyway, I’ll leave it there.

Craig Bailey: All right. We should have put that in tip of the week. I remembered you know how I said I had three things?

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: I forgot two of them. I’ll tell you the second one that I do think is important to mention when it comes to Snapchat and these messaging apps, and that is that reporting on ROI is actually very difficult. So while the future is all about integrating messaging into your website, it’s very hard to relate that back to the monthly report that says, “Here’s how many leads.” So I think that’s worth as a marketing manager acknowledging that that’s a challenge. It shouldn’t be a challenge that stops you doing it.

Ian Jacob: No.

Craig Bailey: And in fact, the third point I was really gonna make is that messaging is not a novelty, this is the future.

Ian Jacob: It is.

Craig Bailey: Reporting still needs to catch up, we’re going to have problems there, but don’t, don’t kind of dismiss it because of that.

Ian Jacob: Look, in its simplicity, in your reporting, you said you had this many interactions or this many chats with people, I think that’s enough of a metric to start with and you can build out on that as you go along. But to start off if you want to report it back to your management team, that’s a good start.

Craig Bailey: Yeah, it’s definitely going to be a manual thing going and looking back at your notifications and you’d manually note that down. Some chat apps, I think SnapEngage has a integration with HubSpot, but there there’s those usual chat hurdles that you discussed, you know, having to enter your name.

Ian Jacob: That’s right, yes.

Craig Bailey: I’d love to know if HubSpot…you wanted Instagram as [SP] the HubSpot?

Ian Jacob: Yes.

Craig Bailey: I’d love a Facebook Messenger integration. I think that would be gold, wouldn’t it?

Ian Jacob: Thanks, Darmesh. [SP]

Craig Bailey: Thanks, Darmesh.

Ian Jacob: All right, now, finally…

Craig Bailey: We should just say that Mary Meeker, that’s an annual report. It’s very kind of, I guess, famous in the industry. It comes out each year. She’s from Kleiner Perkins and she does a massive analysis of trends in the internet. We’ve included a link to it and also a few key pieces of commentary around it. Well worth reading, 213-page Slideshare.

Ian Jacob: Correct.

Craig Bailey: Gold on every slide.

Ian Jacob: So action, take some of your slides and put it on SlideShare.

Craig Bailey: There you go.

Ian Jacob: Now finally, Craig, just to wrap it up, opinion of the week and this is really interesting. This is from the marketing magazine and about a social study that focuses more engagement and not on ROI.

Craig Bailey: Yeah, so this is just a quick opinion of the week from me, Marketing Mag, it’s a well-known Australian magazine, printed magazine, and they have an online version as well. But they were doing case studies, and their latest version, it’s called the Social Issue, right? So it is looking at social channels, but what struck me is that they were doing these case studies, and we’ve included screenshots from one, where a bank spent 40,000 on a campaign, and it was considered a success based on things like the number of impressions it got on the Google display network, how many likes it got on Facebook, and how many people entered hashtags related to the campaign. There wasn’t a single tracked KPI that related to any number of people being new leads for the branch. Of course, nothing financial. Nothing that mentioned anything about business, you know, improvement and all that. It was purely vanity metrics.

And I think why we wanted to raise this is because this is a case study, and there are many more in this issue from a leading marketing magazine for marketing managers, and there’s no mention of ROI. So it’s no wonder that it’s not kind of typically spoken about when even our leading magazines don’t highlight it. In the US that would never happen, it’s all about ROI, right?

Ian Jacob: Absolutely. And you know what? I think that if you wanna take your market to the next level, you really need to be thinking about what that return on investment is. Because if you can do that and you do it smartly, you will win every time hands down.

Craig Bailey: Totally agree. All right, well, we’ve come to time. Thanks for that, Ian, our fantastic episode. Lots of interesting things there.

Ian Jacob: Sounded very social and very ROI.

Craig Bailey: ROI, social, Snapchat, we’ve got all the buzz words, don’t we? Anyway, thanks for listening. We’d love your feedback. Drop us a note on the site. Hit us up on Twitter. And if you’re that way inclined, leave us a review. We’d love a review on iTunes, wouldn’t we?

Ian Jacob: Yes, we would love a review. And share it with people that you know that would actually benefit from hearing. And if you would like anything added to our show, anything interesting that you would like to share, we’d love to hear from you because that really does make our day.

Craig Bailey: All right, Ian. I’ll catch you next week.

Ian Jacob: See you, Craig.

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