21 min read

Episode 169: Community Events, plus When to redo your website

Welcome to Episode 169 of HubShots!

HubShots - APAC's number 1 HubSpot focussed podcast - where we discuss HubSpot tips, features and strategies for growing your sales and marketing results.

This episode we chat about community marketing events, HubSpot sales and marketing features, plus how to respond if your boss says ‘we need to redo the website’.

Listen to the episode here: https://soundcloud.com/hubshots/169-community-events-plus-when-to-redo-your-website/

HubShots, the podcast for marketing managers and sales professionals who use HubSpot, hosted by Ian Jacob from Search & Be Found and Craig Bailey from XEN Systems.

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Recorded: Thursday 08 August 2019 | Published: Friday 23 August 2019

Shot 1: Inbound Thought of the Week

Community events

GROW with HubSpot

Interesting takeaways:

12  The True Story of Naadam   The World s Fairest Cashmere   YouTube

Graham Hawkins

  • Pruning old irrelevant content to improve your SEO via Matt Barby:

Matthew Howells Barby

Sydney SEO Dinner - Matt Barby was there.

Organised by James Norquay who organises the Online Marketing Sydney meeting:


Shot 2: HubSpot Marketing Feature of the Week

Email Overview Report - new version available in some portals:


Marketing Email   HubSpot 1

Not all portals have access to it, instead you’ll get this:

Permissions required   HubSpot

Shot 3: HubSpot Sales Feature of the Week

HubSpot Video for sales

HubSpot Video is available in pro and enterprise versions of the Sales, Marketing, and Service Hubs.

With HubSpot Video sales teams have a simple way to create 1-to-1 and share videos inside of HubSpot.

Here is what it looks like to do within HubSpot

Craig Bailey

What it looks like on the timeline:

Craig Bailey 1


Shot 4: HubSpot Gotcha of the Week

Changing custom property values used in a dropdown - they won’t automatically flow through to workflow logic eg triggers or branching logic etc

However contact values will update based on the index of the item chosen.


A custom property has dropdown with A, B and C

Select A on a contact record and save.

Use branching logic that checks for A on a contact

Now change the custom property dropdown options to be X, Y and Z

The contact record value will automatically update to X

The branching logic will continue to check for A on the record

Shot 5: Marketing Tip of the Week

Be wary of getting emails from ‘Google Ads reps’ saying they need to fix issues in your Google ads accounts:


6  Gil Gildner on Twitter   Hi  GoogleAds can you explain why you re emailing our clients saying we  denied to take down the update    ppcchat https   t co wTZiKEecVo    Twitter

These are often outsource agencies using junior people who aren’t well trained, who end up damaging your Ads account.

Shot 6: Insight of the Week

“We need to re-do our whole website…”

A trap you can fall into when results aren’t what you’d like is to focus on ‘redoing the website’.

We’ve both had conversations this week with companies who are planning to completely redo their website under the assumption it will significantly improve results.

We chat through our approach to this, including:

  • Ensuring proper tracking is in place that allows examination of what is working and what’s not
  • So that you can gain insight into what needs fixing
  • Often it’s not the website, but rather the messaging on pages not being aligned with the target audiences
  • Think through your copywriting approach

Shot 7: Integration of the Week

Xero integration with HubSpot just announced, at this stage it is a simple contact sync from Xero to HubSpot.  We hear that from November it will have a lot more features.


Shot 8: Resource of the Week

Ecommerce as video


Read up on Livestream ecommerce, which is huge in China. We will be discussing this topic in detail in a future episode.

Shot 9: Quote of the Week

“Many companies have forgotten they sell to actual people. Humans care about the entire experience, not just marketing or sales or service. To really win in the modern age, you must solve for humans." -@dharmesh

Shot 10: Bonus Links of the Week

Crazy collection of awesome calculators:


Rand Fishkin thread on Google’s response to Congress when asked whether less than 50% of clicks on Google go to non-Google properties:


Please rate and leave us some feedback as this helps us improve and reach more marketers.

HubShots Episode 169: Community Events, plus When to redo your website


- [Ian] Hi everyone, welcome to HubShots, episode 169. We discuss HubShot tips, tricks, and features for growing your sales and marketing results. In this episode, we're going to talk about community market events, HubSpot sales and marketing features, plus how to respond if your boss says, "We need to redo our website, Craig." My name is Ian Jacob from Search & Be Found, and with me is Craig Bailey from XEN Systems. How are you, Craig?

- [Craig] Look, I'm good, and gee, I think we need to redo our website.

- [Ian] Yes, and we're going to talk about this, because I've had this being asked at me a few times this week.

- [Craig] Yeah, I've had it as well this week. Someone saying, "Oh, do you think we should focus on our website?" So we'll come up to that, I think, in Shot 6: Insight of the Week.

- [Ian] All right, onto our INBOUND Thought of the Week, Craig. And we both attended GROW with HubSpot this week, in Sydney. And I have to say, I was a bit surprised.

- [Craig] Surprised in a good way?

- [Ian] Yes, surprised to see the number of people there. It's the first time they've charged, and, to see the number of people that were in attendance shocked me a little bit. But, you know, I think it's fantastic, and I think it's that thing, if you pay money, you turn up.

- [Craig] It was very well attended, and I thought the quality of the talks was very good. I don't think there was a single session... I wasn't there for all of them, I have to say, I missed some of them at the start. But the ones I attended, they were all high quality. And we're actually going to pull out just a few of our takeaways from some of the sessions, three little micro-takeaways.

- [Ian] So, we went to one where we listened to Eric Newcomb from Shopify, and that was really interesting.

- [Craig] He was talking about branding, and he had some great examples and, you know the video that everyone responded to when he was... Fashion Brand?

- [Ian] Yes, the sweaters, right?

- [Craig] Yeah, the cashmere sweaters. So, they were called Naadam, N-A-A-D-A-M, and they have some awesome videos, so we've included a link to that. And why are we including this? Because, well, you know, there's lots of funny videos. But this particular one, it was just about their brand voice and their brand identity. What they stood for, all encapsulated in a couple minutes. I thought it was really good. Entertaining, but also educational about what they stand for and do. And I just thought it was really good. I kind of found it motivating.

- [Ian] It was. I love the video because it actually showed their entire, how the product started right through to their production, procurement, right to the end, through the sale. And why they did stuff and why they chose not to do things, and I really love that.

- [Craig] I don't know if you were in the session with Graham Hawkins, you were probably in Matt Barby's session at the time.

- [Ian] I was in Matt Barby's session.

- [Craig] Yeah, well Graham Hawkins, he was talking about the social selling courtship process, which is, basically, if I was to summarize it, it's, "Don't spam." It's actually built on the well-known dating analogy. You know, just, kind of, gently, gently, and then build a relationship first. We've included one of the slides from his deck, which was really good. Just a nice little process for how to approach people on social. You're trying to offer them value, if there's a feared way, you can help them further. And that's really the process.

- [Ian] Correct, always be helping, Craig. And now, I went to the Matt Barby session about SEO... [Craig] Which was absolutely packed. I got there a bit late and I was crammed up the back, I just couldn't get in. I thought I was going to faint, it was so hot and crammed with people, very popular.

- [Ian] I loved the session, and I've been talking to people about this. But really, it came down to how Google searches change, and the immense change that's happened in the last twelve months. And how Google have become better at understanding intent with search. And he used lots of great stories of things that have happened in HubSpot. You know, a piece of content that was getting a hundred thousand views a month, and went from hundred thousand almost down to zero. And how he went about, and his team went about, trying new things and trying to understand what was going on. And how they are now looking at content, and how they're actually working with content, and working on understanding how search results work in different scenarios. So it was fascinating.

- [Craig] I think the interesting thing about that is that it doesn't matter how big and advanced and successful you are at SEO, there's always changes happening. So just don't, you know... HubSpot, a content machine, they're not immune. And so I'm interested to hear that drop and how they've, basically, analyzed it, found what's changed, and then worked towards restoring the traffic.

- [Ian] Correct. So, he used a really good analogy, and I'll just try to repeat it as best I can. He used an analogy of football, for example, right? So he knows if you're a Manchester United fan and you do a search on a Wednesday, for example, Google understands it's not a day when games are going on, so it might actually show you information about the team, might show you fixtures, might show you where they are in the ladder. If you do the same search on a Saturday or Sunday when they're playing, you're going to get results of the game, you're going to get, "Would you like to buy tickets?" and how to get to the game would be one of them. The result and the experience is totally different to that on a Wednesday, for example. And it just made me realize, "wow!" Like, things have really shifted. And we know this, but when you hear it from somebody that's doing this on a mass scale, like Matt, it just made me, you know, go think, "Wow!"

- [Craig] And this is what I really like about when you hear speakers like that. They're actually doing it, they're in the trenches doing it. Oh, well, he's maybe not doing it hands on, but he's overseeing it and he's guiding the strategy to get stuff back and what's working. So I really like to hear that. "Skin in the game," as we say.

- [Ian] Yeah, and his whole thing was about doing more with less, so, essentially, using what you have and making it better to get a better result.

- [Craig] Now he had a slide that we've got in the show notes, which is really around analyzing content to prune it out if it's not longer useful. He used the Brexit analogy for it.

- [Ian] He did! Anyway, he used the Brexit analogy and he actually gave seven points about how to prune irrelevant content off your site. And I'd encourage everyone to actually look at this, even if you are not doing SEO. Actually go through it and understand what it takes, because you can be asking the right questions to your agency, or the person that's doing your SEO, and saying "Hey, have we actually looked at this stuff? "Or are we just cruising along?"

- [Craig] All right, lot's of great value there. Now, just continuing the theme of events, and also with Matt Barby. I was actually at an SEO dinner last night. So this was the night after the HubSpot with GROW, Matt was still in Sydney. It's the first time I've been to one of those, because, you know I'm not particularly social, right?

- [Ian] And you went by yourself, Craig?

- [Craig] I went by myself. I didn't have anyone to hold my hand, oh dear! But it was actually really good. They were really friendly, really smart. And so, why am I mentioning all of this? Well, basically, even if you're of my personality type, which is fearful, I guess, of getting out in social situations, it was really valuable. I met a whole bunch of smart SEO people, James Norquay from Prosperity Media here in Sydney, a great agency. He organized the meet-up, and it was really good. And I got to chat with Matt as well, and chatted about a few HubSpot things. So it was really good. So, to marketing managers and people working in digital and that, just join one of these groups. Go along, meet a few people, and get a whole bunch of ideas. And we were chatting about some of these over dinner tonight. Like, we do this agency stuff day in and day out, but I was just exposed to new ideas from people, so it really valuable.

- [Ian] All right, Craig. Onto our HubSpot marketing feature of the week. And this week we're going to talk about the email of your report. And this is actually new, and it's in Beta. Not every portal will have it, but we want to talk about it, because it is coming.

- [Craig] So, we've got a screen shot of it. I couldn't believe this. I was looking through a client's portal. They're on Pro. And I thought, "Oh, what's this email report? "Now this looks pretty good." It's the new email report. "Oh, I hadn't seen that in mine." Went into our own` agency portal. We're in the prize portal, right? And I'm like, "Ah, cool, we're in." Oh, not here. And in fact, when I tried to go to link that would correspond to it, the URL... Nah, don't have access.

- [Ian] You don't have the keys, Craig.

- [Craig] No, not special. So I stuck with the old email report. But the new one looks really good. And we were going through this with a client, because they can just... Because we've got everything nicely in campaigns, right? At the top. You could do this with the old style as well, but you can just choose the campaign, drill into the emails, and you can see all the emails with that campaign grouped into a summary. So, if you've got brands or department visions, you can kind of get a sense of how the email marketing for those departments is going. Really useful. I just love how they're always improving these kinds of things.

- [Ian] All right, Craig. Onto our sales feature of the week. And, I wanted to highlight this HupSpot video for sales. Now, we all know its been there for a while, but I think very few people use it. And, look, admittedly, I don't use it that much, but I'm going to actually put my face on there and do it more often. So, anyway, we did a test, right? And it uses Vidyard, which is one of the integration partners with HubSpot. And I just want to encourage people. If you are in sales and you want to cut through the noise, it's a really good way, and the tools are built in, literally. If you have a computer you can do this. It's just about enabling it and recording the video.

- [Craig] Yeah, so you recorded this within HubSpot, right?

- [Ian] Yes.

- [Craig] So, you were in the HubSpot, you were in My Contact record for this particular test. You just went an created it.

- [Ian] I hit the video button, yeah.

- [Craig] Hit the video, you recorded, sent it to me. It's all hosted within HubSpot/Vidyard. So, yeah. It was quite a smooth process.

- [Ian] That's right. So, if you're in sales, I definitely encourage you to do this. If you've recorded ones, you might actually have ones that you can use on a regular basis. Say, you're answering particular questions. Maybe it's a, "Hi, my name is Ian, and I just want to introduce myself." That's a really simple video. You can actually keep that and reuse it many times over. All right, Craig, onto our HubSpot gotcha of the week.

- [Craig] This is an interesting one you highlighted to me today, around... It's to do with setting up custom properties. So, we're on a contact record instead of create a custom property. And it's got its own drop-down, you've got A, B, C. And so, then, you ran into this issue where, if you changed the values on the drop-down, you couldn't rely on them being changed throughout the system.

- [Ian] That's right. So, the custom property, as most of you would know, you might be collecting a particular kind of information. So, as a test, let's say you have a product and you've got product A, B, C. And your boss comes along and tells you, "Ah, I don't want product A to be called product A. "Let's change that to product AB." And you're like, "Okay, cool." So, let's save that against a contact record. So, Craig has now bought product A, which is now called product AB. If you look against his contact record, you're going to see that it's changed to AB. Now, this is what I found. I had this in a work-flow, where I was looking to send a particular email if you had product A, and a different email if you had product B. That did not change. So, when I did this test, and I thought, "Okay, I've now changed this to product AB, "if I request product AB now, I should get this email." I didn't get the email. And I went, "Oh, there's something wrong." Anyway, went to the work-flow, it's looking for product A, which does not exist any longer. And therefore, if you have product AB, which used to be A, you don't see anything. So you need to change the work-flow.

- [Craig] And I imagine that would impact... We didn't test this, but you were talking about triggers or branching, things like that, based on the property value. So, the comparison that you are doing still looked for the value, as opposed to which reference they were. I imagine smart content would be the same. It probably wouldn't switch out, it'd still be looking for an actual value.

- [Ian] Exactly. So, just something to be aware of if you're using some of the logic within HubSpot. All right, Craig. Onto our HubSpot marketing tip of the week. And we have all seen these emails, so...

- [Craig] So, my clients get these as well. They're an email from someone claiming to work from Google Ads, saying, "Oh, you've got problems with your account, and you need to change some things." And they normally want to set up a call and walk you through.

- [Ian] That's right. So, let me read some of this email. Because most people would have probably heard about this email. It say's,

- [Craig] This is an example email you might get, yeah.

- [Ian] "Hi Craig, his is Rohit, your Google Ads "account manager. "I tried reaching your agency to provide important updates missing in your account. "They have denied to take down the update, "which might affect your performance. "I request you call me at the number given "and schedule a time, "by clicking the link below. "I look forward to hearing from you, Craig."

- [Craig] Okay, so just... I'll put this in context. So, this is an email... So, let's say you're an agency, like we are. And we say to our clients, "Oh, there's this new feature "in Google Ads," let's say. "We don't want you to use it." Or, "It's not appropriate for you." Anyway, they get an email, not to us, the agency looking after the client's account, but directly to the client, saying, "Ah, there is an error." In fact, what does it say?

- [Ian] It says, "To provide the important updates missing in the account," right? It's kind of like, "oh there's something missing, there's something wrong." They have "denied to take down the update." It's even terrible English, it hardly makes sense, right? So then the client will ring us, or you, or the agency, and go, "Oh, what's going on, what's..." And often they don't even get to that, because they've spoken to the Google rep, who has already made changes in their account. And the problem is, they're not actually a Google rep, for starters. They're some out-sourced agency, by Google. Google has out-sourced it to them, but they're not actually, officially, Google. And, often they're just terrible. They're juniors, they're poorly trained, or not trained at all, and they give bad advice. And this is going on... If you're on Twitter, you'll see this often. People are complaining about this all the time. And they're like, "really bad advice", "they go and they destroy the accounts." Great for Google. Spending, you know... You're wasting more money, and stuff like that. But, anyway, we've linked to a thread on Twitter where this has been exposed. And, actually, Google Ads replied to this, and they were going, "Oh, sorry, let us look into it." Everyone was piling on, going, "just how bad Google is," and, "you're terrible" and So, to listeners, to marketing managers, if you are working with an agency who is looking after your Google Ads, and you get these emails from people purporting to be Google reps, just be wary. Discuss it with your agency first, and just be informed on the changes that this Google rep is attempting to make you make in the account.

- [Ian] And, Craig, onto our insight of the week. Now, "Craig, you know what? "Our website's not working. "We need to redo our whole website." Now, this is something I heard, even today. And I asked why. And, you know, there was nothing wrong with the way the website looked. It was actually really well-designed. On brand, maybe the content could have been updated. And then, I said, "Why do you want to do that?" And they were a bit dumb-founded. They were like, "Oh."

- [Craig] I think this is the go-to when you're procrastinating. You're not getting results and you're like, "Ah, we've really got to redo our website." Because that's magically going to fix it all, right? So, this comes in a number of guises. But what do we always say? Who was it that first said to us, "solve for the problem"?

- [Ian] Yes, correct.

- [Craig] Who was that? Forget who said... Anyway, HubSpot, of course, pushed this line, "solve for the problem" all the time. Might have been Kip Bodnar, actually.

- [Ian] Kip, yes.

- [Craig] I remember, interviewed him way back in Episode, what was that? Thirty-four, or something like that, way back in...

- [Ian] It was a long time ago!

- [Craig] How you going, Kip? I wonder how he's going? Anyway, "solve for the problem". And this is it. Is the website the problem, or what's the problem? Well, often you say, "Oh, what is the problem?" They don't know. So, we, as marketers, need to be putting in place a framework where you can actually measure what the results are, so that, when there is a problem, and look, there's plenty of problems, you're actually solving for the most important problem. And quite often, the design of the website is not the most important problem.

- [Ian] Correct. So, there are some things that you can actually do to make sure that you are tracking things, and got the right information to make the right choices with what you want to do. One of the really simple things we do to start, Craig, is looking at Google Analytics, and looking at where people are landing, where people are going, where they're falling off. That's one thing, so, looking at the flow. Another thing we do is, we use a tool like Hotjar, to actually see how far people are scrolling, what are they clicking on, even recording sessions, to get an understanding of what people are doing. What's stopping them from converting, or talking to the business. And, another thing could be, your content is terrible. Actually do a content audit, and see whether it makes sense and it actually flows.

- [Craig] Well that's right. Just getting a good copywriter involved sometimes, it does a world of good. The other thing, you know, when you said Hotjar, and things like that, just, sometimes, speed of the site is so bad. You don't need to redo your site. You've just got to get it on better hosting. How many times have we said that on this show?

- [Ian] We had one of those instances in this week!

- [Craig] Exactly!

- [Ian] That business has moved their site onto a WP engine. Because they were on a web . The business-owner says to me, he goes, "Wow, it's so much quicker!" And that's the reality of it. It's like, don't host your site in a bad neighborhood, I always say, because you're bound to have someone hack it, you're bound to have not the best windows and soundproofing, etc. And so it pays to host in the right place.

- [Craig] Absolutely.

- [Ian] All right, onto our integration of the week, Craig. And this was announced at GROW, in Sydney.

- [Craig] Yeah, so we just thought we'd call out each week now, just an integration that is worth considering. And this is for Xero.

- [Ian] That's right. Now this is pretty important, because a lot of people have asked for it. And there are other integrations for Xero, but this integration is actually built by Xero, and it's native. So it will hook into HubSpot. Now, at the time of us recording this, the only thing that happens in this integration is that data from Xero goes into HubSpot. And, towards the end of this year, we'll actually have more functionality between HubSpot and Xero.

- [Craig] So, when they announced it, because I wasn't there for when they announced it, what was the actual benefit? Is there a need for people to get contacts out of Xero? What's driving that?

- [Ian] No, so this is just the first part, Craig. It's really about having visibility about your contacts. Their billing, getting their customer lifetime value, what's being invoiced, etc. So, when it was announced, it was a bigger piece. It was kind of as a part of the whole Martech talk. The marketing technology talk? And how the number of connections have actually increased. Every year, it's like a thousand more. I think there were, like, 7,000 this last year. I think when they started this whole marketing technology thing, there was two or three hundred on that map. There's 7,000 this year, and that's in the space of five or six years. So the whole driver was, is that, even in their accounting space, there is a massive number of apps that are connecting to Xero now, but now they're looking for this connector between Xero and the CRM that's driving a lot of this behavior. All right, Craig, onto our resource of the week. Now, this is something you discovered. Its about ecommerce as video.

- [Craig] So, this is an article put out by Andreessen Horowitz. They're an investment company, venture capital company in the US, that invested in a lot of technology companies over the years. So, probably name any technology or big site, Uber, WeWork, anything. They've probably invested in them. Anyway, they often look at trends of what's happening in the market, and what they're seeing. And this particular article is really interesting, because it's around the role of video being, basically, the entry into ecommerce. So, we typically think of ecommerce like a Shopify site, right? "Oh, here's the catalog." I go through. I find the product I want. Then I click "add to basket", etc. What they're looking at is all these examples, predominantly from China, I have to say, of... It's all in-app. So, you're in an app and you're seeing videos that demonstrate something. They're often viral videos, funny things, demonstrating a product, and the "buy" button is right there in the app. So, it's no longer, "I go to a site to buy it." It's like, "I'm watching videos, I just buy in-app." And then it's a beautiful experience, all within the app. So, we're actually going to dig into this in a future episode, in some detail. However, I just really want to highlight... You should read this article and look at some of the example videos of how commerce is going on in China, it's amazing.

- [Ian] That's right. And I think if you are in marketing and sales, you've got to know what's going on. And I was amazed. And we know this happens. I mean, already we can do things like... You could be on Facebook, browsing things, and you can pretty much buy straight off Facebook without ever leaving the platform. It's about changing the way we are interacting. And I know for a fact... I watch what people do, and how they browse stuff. What they were saying here, it's like, you don't even have to go to the store. Craig, you and me could be making a video right now, about a particular product, and then the "buy" button comes up to, "Hey, you want to buy it?"

- [Cragi] Oh that mug that we have, the amber mug!

- [Ian] Oh, the amber mug, yeah. We could be using our amber mug right now, and then a buy button would come up, and you'd be able to buy your amber mug straight off that video that we're posting about the review.

- [Craig] It's the fear of the way it's going. I mean, we're seeing hints of this with Instagram and their ecommerce connectivity that they're building into Instagram. But, when you see this post, and you see some of the examples, it's just... It's already here in a massive way in China. It's just that we're not seeing it more, certainly not in Australia.

- [Ian] That's right. All right, our quote of the week, Craig?

- [Craig] Who's this unknown person that you're quoting?

- [Ian] He's very unknown, you're not going to know him. His name's Dharmesh Shah. If you don't know him, please go and find out who he is. A lovely, lovely gentleman. Anyway, he has this quote. It says, "Many companies have forgotten "they sell to actual people. "Humans care about their entire experience, "not just marketing or sales or service. "To really win in the modern age, "you must solve for humans."

- [Craig] Dharmesh has hit the nail on the head again. Yet again, we should say. Didn't he have that quote that's painted up on the wall?

- [Ian] Yeah.

- [Craig] At HubSpot when we were visiting Boston? What was that quote? I can't remember...

- [Ian] I think it's always... It's something that, if you make your customers look good, then you look good in the process.

- [Craig] Yes, that's right, it is.

- [Ian] I was searching my pockets, Craig, to see whether I had it. Because I have a picture on my phone.

- [Craig] Oh really, yeah. Oh, I thought you just kept Dharmesh quotes in your pocket, just for these kinds of situations.

- [Craig] Oh Dharmesh, love you.

- [Ian] All right, now we do have some crazy collection of awesome calculators, Craig.

- [Craig] Oh, omnicalculator.com... I haven't found a use for this yet, but it's so awesome I've actually shared it with my team and everyone I know, and I'm putting it in the show now. You go to this link, and it's got calculators for anything and everything. There's, like, hundreds of them. So, next time you're thinking, "Oh, I wish I had a calculator," to calculate something to do with health or finances, or anything, life..

- [Ian] Just go to omnicalculator.com

- [Craig] That's it.

- [Ian] All right. And there's another one, in Rand Fishkins' thread, on Google's response to Congress, when they asked whether less than 50% of clicks on Google go to non-Google properties.

- [Craig] Yes, and disingenuous responses, avoiding... But, look, frankly, the answer is yes, less than 50% of clicks go to non-Google properties, ie, more than 50% of clicks go to Google properties. So, you're on Google, searching, they go to Google properties more often than not, the clicks. So, yeah, very interesting behavior. However, compare that to what we were just talking about, INAB commerce going like that. So, you can go onto Google, and maybe there's something you're searching for and want to buy. You could could click... Well, it might go to Google, or it might not. Might go off to your site, if you're lucky. The in-app experience, when you look at that article we were chatting about before, with video, you are staying in that app. So, look, that's the way Google's going. All the platforms are. So you can't... I don't think there's a case, to be saying, "Oh, that's not fair!" That's what's happening.

- [Ian] That's exactly right. And it's how we understand all of this. And how this affects what we do, is what you need to really understand. Now, listeners, we'd love you to leave us some feedback, as it helps us reach more and more people. And you can leave your feedback on Apple podcast, on Spotify.

- [Craig] Spotify, you can. Even YouTube, where you can visit the ones and ones of visitors to our episodes on YouTube. That has just not worked at all, has it?

- [Ian] No, but again, we're testing and we're there.

- [Craig] We're testing and measuring it. However, Instagram, that's where we might get a lot of impact. So, yeah, you can leave us a comment on Instagram as well.

- [Ian] And thank you so much for listening to us. And as we head towards INBOUND 2019, we hope you have a great week. See you, Craig.

- [Craig] Catch you later, Ian.

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